Voice/Vision Holocaust Survivor Oral History Archive

Pauline Kleinberg - October 28, 1982

Head of the Judenrat

...so deport us.


Husband: Deport us.

Do you remember who was in charge of the Judenrat in your...



...Fogel. I wouldn't uh, how could I forget this?

Why is that?

Before the war, my father belonged to some organization like um, char...charitable philanthropic organizations uh, like somebody didn't have food enough for a holiday or somebody was sick, uh, I don't know what they called the Bikur Cholim...

Husband: Yeah.

...and all this...

Husband: It wasn't ???.

We, we were, you know, fro...that of the elite from, from the town. They had like uh, uh, you know, donations to help the others. So my father and that Fogel--it was a--he was also--they were co-workers in this organization. My father was the or...organizer. And he was a younger man than my father, but he was a good man. And he became the Judenrat. He probably was the most capable man. And, you know, if somebody will tell you that those people--the Jewish ones, which they had taken to--really to serve them, nothing else. At that time they thought by doing this they will survive. They thought that this is a, a form of survival. And wha...if they did any injustice, I don't--I personally--I, I discuss this many time with my--with friends--the ones also that survived--I personally don't hold this against them. Because at that time, if they--some people couldn't do it. But the ones they could, they thought that this is a form of survival. And you do anything to survive, right? If people are willing to live. So this Fogel--that's why I can't forget this name--nice young man, nice family. And, and I--but he was shot, then ???. He be...I couldn't believe it. The way he handled the people later. He became a animal. They made a animal out of him. And he had a few people around him too, helping him. But they all meant to survive. But I couldn't believe it. If my father would live at that time, he couldn't believe that he's doing this. But I, I wouldn't hold it against him even at that time. Now he's not living, he was shot. He was the last one shot because he was a good servant. You know what they did tell him after he did all--they punish us everyday they got up in the city. This was the routine until it was the Judenrein--clear of Jews. Said "Fogel--Mr. Fogel, today we need ten Jews." He knew ten Jews to kill. One--the Gestapo man said, "I can't have breakfast if I won't shoot a few." He told us this after. So he had to, he had to furnish them. Instead if and they should go out and be bang, bang, bang to all of us, he had to make uh, to, to uh, produce those men. And how would you like to be that guy? That's why I said, not everyone could do it. But the ones they did, meant to survive.

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